Curse

freaky naughty · Feb 11, 2008, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

...What?
Stop failing.

Do you know anything about mesmers?

Yes I do, but energy denial does not help at all in PvE especially in hm where monsters have almost infinite energy, what good can degen do me when I'm fighting a leet boss with 10k hp, Power Block is a good shutdown skill, but other than that I don't see how mesmers are made for PvE. PvP is an entirely different story though.

some guy · Feb 11, 2008, 01:11 AM // 01:11

A well played mesmer is a godsend. They make PvE so much easier. There are a lot of bad mesmers out there though, and people that can't play them say they suck.

cgruber · Feb 11, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

sig of illusions will make your mesmer into a extremely verstile killing/healing/support machine.

+16 illusions + 13 fast casting

Sig of Illusions {E}
Empathy
Backfire
Anguished was lingwah
Auspicious Incantation
Splinter Weapon
Spirit Light
Mend Body & Soul

gg

Undivine · Feb 11, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

The mesmer is my favorite class (and I only do PvE). But I must admit, I have always complained of there lack of versatility. I mean, I can make a thoughtful, unique, and effective build, but only if I know exactly what we're up against and only if it doesn't change throughout (like when you vanquish from Yak's Bend to Ascalon and you cannot change your build along the way.) If that's not the case, I must be saddled with a generic build that even then, may not be effective in every situation, especially when some of the skills still need to recharge.

Here's my theory why mesmers lack support type skills. People often forget the original description of the mesmer. It's right there in your Prophecies handbook:

Quote:

Their unique illusionary talents can slow or even halt enemy movement and skill casting, or cause imaginary illnesses that drain Health and Energy from foes while healing and energizing allies.

It seems ANet intended the mesmer to have some ally buffs. And the mesmer's theme is that they're actors and entertainers. I'm thinking they were originally supposed to have some "bardic" talents. It makes sense. I mean, what is "Inspiration" magic if the only one it inspires is yourself? Seems a bit odd to me. It's a shame, because I used to play classes on which the mesmer was based in other games. The Enchanter in EverQuest, for example, was almost viewed as a necessity and every group needed one. I suspect the mesmer was made to be similar to such classes, but then upon play testing they realized it was too powerful for PvP. The mesmer is probably the earliest example of PvP balancing gimping PvE gameplay.

In PvE the mesmer is absolutely fantastic at ruining a single boss, but against an army of weaklings, he's just not terribly effective. In fact, the mesmer fairs better in hard mode than in normal mode, since all his skills ignore armour, the enemies live longer, and all the enemies attack faster in hard mode. The mesmer can also be useful when you know *exactly* what you're up against and if that enemy strategy will not change from one area to the next. If that's not the case, you have to rely on your secondary or use a fairly generic build. In the end, unless there's a major boss or a consistent theme to the area, people would rather overlook the mesmer and get something else. And even then, because there's so few mesmers, the more ignorant among us wouldn't even bother with mesmers at all.

I still love playing them. However, when my guild or friends list asks me to join them with something and I offer to bring my mesmer, they usually say "how about your monk?" or "well... could you bring your ranger?"

I don't know how they could give group buffs to a mesmer without making them too strong in PvP however.

Arkantos · Feb 11, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Look at what the mesmer does well and what, if any, support type skills could be missing from the game. If you can see any correlation then you should at least consider the possibilty

For example, empathy could just as easily be an enchantment that is cast on an ally. Or mesmers could have an enchantment where the next skill an ally uses interrupts, edenies, or strips the enchantment off of an enemy. There could be a defensive domintation enchantment that will interrupt the next hostile spell cast on a targeted ally (the elite version would disable that skill for a few seconds). Their elemental mantras could affect adjacent allies like protector's stance does, it'd be a little overpowered but you get the idea. Some illusion skills might make for cool enchantments as well, for example an enchantment that causes -2 degen to adjacent foes. or causes blindness to everyone who hits that ally in melee.

You're completely missing my point. From a role playing and somewhat logical point of view, sure you can add more support skills. But from a skill balance point of view, the point of view that matters, it's an unneeded change that could cause balance issues.

Div · Feb 11, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Sure it'd be great for every class to be highly versatile, but that's simply not a viable option because of skill balance. For example, I'd love for my monk to actually do damage, but buffing smiting prayers will just turn it into a gimmicky and stupid line.

Numa Pompilius · Feb 11, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgruber

sig of illusions will make your mesmer into a extremely verstile killing/healing/support machine.

PvE spells benefit greatly: signet of illusions + arcane echo + ebon vanguard assassin.

Signet of Illusions is a horrible elite; not in itself but due to what it says about ANet and mesmers. One can almost hear the discussion at ANet how to make the nearly useless Illusion line of spells more appealing.

Undivine · Feb 12, 2008, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

PvE spells benefit greatly: signet of illusions + arcane echo + ebon vanguard assassin.

Signet of Illusions is a horrible elite; not in itself but due to what it says about ANet and mesmers. One can almost hear the discussion at ANet how to make the nearly useless Illusion line of spells more appealing.

I wouldn't call the Illusion line nearly useless. Really, I wouldn't call a lot of the mesmer skill useless. They just lack versatility in PvE.

But you are absolutely right about Signet of Illusions. It's a band-aid skill.

Kanyatta · Feb 12, 2008, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgruber

+16 illusions

OMG! EWWWWWWWWWW!

freaky naughty · Feb 12, 2008, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pesi

Mesmers are overpowered! Not much can beat them in PvP, if they know what they are facing.
The thing is, as said before. They are Not as overpowered in PvE, But they are very strong, and useful too! People just have to learn to play them.

Mesmer has been my main character for 27 months and nothing can change my love for them.

Sorry, if I crush your love for mesmers but mesmers can permanently shut down ONE enemy. high-end pve = 20 enemies with superbuffed attributes (gg anet). If it was only 2 VERY highly dangerous enemies in terms of damage dealt and self-preservation then a mesmer would come in handy. Killing 20 enemies as fast as possible, however is an elementalist's job. Face it PvE is dominated by the trinity. Mesmers are not a PvE class.

Undivine · Feb 12, 2008, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by freaky naughty

Sorry, if I crush your love for mesmers but mesmers can permanently shut down ONE enemy. high-end pve = 20 enemies with superbuffed attributes (gg anet). If it was only 2 VERY highly dangerous enemies in terms of damage dealt and self-preservation then a mesmer would come in handy. Killing 20 enemies as fast as possible, however is an elementalist's job. Face it PvE is dominated by the trinity. Mesmers are not a PvE class.

Exactly right. That's just why mesmers are not that effective in PvE. Not that they're useless in PvE. Sometimes you absolutely need that one pesky enemy dead to make the rest of the crowd easier. The problem is that the really pesky enemy isn't always there and the mesmer will often be left doing nothing; just killing time until the next worthy target comes by.

What's annoying, is that hexes don't even last as long on most of the bosses these days. Sure, Wastrel's Worry can work better in that situation, but that's a one-trick pony.

Winterclaw · Feb 12, 2008, 02:23 AM // 02:23

What mesmers need is a PvE only skill that makes some of their spells and hexes AoE... But I digress.

Ark, Masa, I see what you two are saying about balance. I don't think a few moderately powered enchantments (nothing uber or imba) would mess up the class balance too much as several classes already have ample ways of dealing with enchantments. Worse comes to pass, enchantment strippers could be cheaper to cast or quicker to recharge to compensate.

arsie · Feb 12, 2008, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by freaky naughty

Sorry, if I crush your love for mesmers but mesmers can permanently shut down ONE enemy. high-end pve = 20 enemies with superbuffed attributes (gg anet). If it was only 2 VERY highly dangerous enemies in terms of damage dealt and self-preservation then a mesmer would come in handy. Killing 20 enemies as fast as possible, however is an elementalist's job. Face it PvE is dominated by the trinity. Mesmers are not a PvE class.

Contrary. The fact that Hard Mode mobs live longer is very important in this. The Mesmer can drop a few long debuffs on some mob (and have them be fully effective cos the mob lives longer), then switch target to permanently lock down one caster (monk or ele, whichever is worse, or both, if the player is good.)

That said, the roles of Curse Necros and Mesmers are blurred. Both have long duration debuffs and "punishment" hexes. In theory, Mesmers have an edge because they can interrupt. But Spiteful Spirit = big numbers. Also, interrupting is kinda a full-time job.